I apologize for sounding a bit bitter when I talk about you army. I've been rereading some of the list threads, and I noticed a trend. A snarky bitter answer followed by, a JK or something along the line of "it's cool." And the way I've been responding isn't cool. I don't even dislike playing against the VC, and I think I have a shot with most of the armies I own to take you to the mat. I love playing Miel and Greg, no matter what army they bring. I just noticed a trend, thought it was in bad form and wished to publicly apologize for it, and say I will try and watch it from here out.

No worries.

I apologize if I come off as superior or condescending in posting lists that are "fun to play against," toned down, or whatever. (Such as my recent thread about letting others play with my VC).

The whole concept of toning down lists so people enjoy playing them is weird... when I theoryhammer DoW lists, there's no similar thought that "I need to tone this down." It's a very weird dynamic in the game, but still necessary imho for the top 3, as they can make some lists that are downright not fun to compete against, and I'd feel bad taking. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to play no comp bring whatever free for alls, as that's not my idea of fun. It's just a challenge to get VC to fit into the casual fun environment we thankfully have in Wisconsin.

I was a fan of undead in Ad&d (my pre warhammer game). I've owned VC minis since 1994, and played them consistently since 6th edition when I picked up warhammer again. I love the story for VC, especially Vampireslayer. It's saddening that my favorite army, (and only painted one!), isn't fun for a majority of people to play against. I would love a revision of the 8th edition rules nerfing vampires so people don't dread playing them. (I've decided recently that getting rid of item and abilities that confer hatred, generate additional attacks (red fury), regeneration, and power dice would fix a substantial part of the game).

Anyways, DoW are in the works in the meantime (as 8th edition can't make them any worse.... can it?), and I won't feel bad running any combos they're capable of doing. I'm hoping spring break will be the week I assemble and paint 1750 points of woad (because 500 pts are done).

I feel your pain with toning down the one of the top 3. Especially as less then 2 years ago, I was tweaking the same army for as much milage and brutality as possible.

I was just re reading both your chedar bowl list post and Miels, and realized there was a big amount of bitter in my posts, followed by "ha, ha, I'm not bitter." I'm not, you guys are just always hard fights.

No apology nessecary. I have not felt offended by anything you have said (as of late ).

I am hoping that in general we can create a more positive discussion forum and I think posts like this go a long way towards that.

Also I can understand your point of view. I too dislike what has been done to some of the books. GW really screwed up with demons, VC and DE. I think you are doing a good job in finding fun lists for your DE. I am trying to do the same with my VC and appreciate any help I can get with that. I am very competitive and that makes finding a balance hard. I want to bring lists that are though but still make it an accomplisment to pull out a win. I am struggling finding this balance with a army that I love. I am sure that you have had similar issues with your beloved DE going from the bottom feeder to top dog. I really dislike most demon armies and many typical power builds of other armies. However I would be heart broken to see demons dissapear from the scene or any other list because some people can break the list.